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Natalie Tysdal 

Eli, thank you so much for joining me. This is a topic in my two years of podcasting I have yet to do.

Eli 

I'm so excited to dive in.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, so I talk to a lot of psychologists. I do a lot of mental health interviews. But the idea of attachment and how we improve our relationships and form better attachments is really important. So tell me about your background and how you can help people with this.

Eli 

Okay, well, so I'll start by saying this. I have a very strong belief that almost everything in our lives comes back to attachment. And here's what attachment is. Attachment is the way that human beings form close relationships as a central part of our survival and our wellbeing. Okay, so there's a difference between interacting with the clerk at the grocery and interacting with a partner, a bestie, a child, a parent. We have these special attachment relationships that we utilize differently than our other encounters with people. And this is so important to understand because that's why those differences are felt in the way we relate. So we might be able to be polite and calm and well regulated as we interact with someone in the greater community, but we come home to our family and all of a sudden we're full of all sorts of complex emotions, or they're full of all sorts of complex emotions about us. And that's because these are different types of relationships. And what we know from solid data is that the way we experience attachment in our early relationships, so usually that's with parents, but whoever our caregivers are growing up, has a tremendous impact on the attachment how those patterns affect whether or not we feel secure and close with other people in our lives as we develop into adulthood and later on.

Natalie Tysdal 

Okay, well, I think you just answered my first question and that is, but go into a little bit more, how much of this is nature versus nurture?

Okay, so the part of attachment that is nurture is what pattern we develop. The part of attachment that is nature is that we all have a drive for it. So if I am born introverted, okay, that might be my nature. That might be just kind of my general disposition. Maybe I'm kind of sensitive. I tend to process internally, might be my DNA, my genetics. But what I do when I enter a state of distress, so when I feel scared or I feel very tender or I'm feeling overwhelmed, that data is all nurture. So do I seek out support in a moment of distress or do I shut down? Do I try to disassociate? Do I get amped up? Don't know how to receive soothing, and we can kind of go through some of what we know the categories are, because there's four. So it's not like there's 17 million.

And this spans across humanity. I mean, this data is pretty incredible. It's been replicated all over the universe. So we know that attachment is a human experience. It's not just a cultural experience. But what we do with our tender emotions and our tender feelings is based on whether or not our caregivers or effective at identifying them for us, with us, and soothing us in response to them. Because you can be mild natured, but if you're scared, it's adaptive to move towards people, period. Especially as a small child.

Natalie Tysdal

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I want to talk about two different things here then and we can go into them. So first, what if you weren't, can you fix that?

If you didn't have those good relationships, you can fix that later. And then at some point after you talk about that, let's talk about how we are as parents making sure that happens.

Eli 

So the reason I'm obsessed with this data is that we can heal it. It isn't a genetic trait. It isn't an inborn nature piece of us. It is the pattern we learn in relationships and we can unlearn it in other relationships or through a healing process. So I wrote a book it's called Securely Attached. It's a workbook and I basically laid out the process that I personally went through before I became a therapist to learn a secure attachment pattern.

Eli 

And it's kind of the template I've been using with my clients over the last 17 years. Like what type of reflective work do we need to do in order to understand why we relate the way we relate, especially in tender and emotional moments and what it would look like to cultivate a more secure pattern of response, not just to other people, but even to ourselves, even the scripts in our head, you know, when we're feeling nervous or scared? Like what's the voice sound like in my head? Is it comforting? Is it nurturing? Is it accusatory? Is it harsh? Is it critical? Right? Like what's going on inside of me in response to tenderness and in response to my tenderness to other people? Is it open, warm, and receptive? Is it avoidant and dismissive? Is it overly anxious and intrusive? Right? Do I get combative when I feel vulnerable, like what's my pattern? Why is this my pattern? Cause when we look back, there's always a why that makes the what makes sense. Always.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm thinking of with this though is you have to be willing, and isn't this the case with every issue we have in life, is you have to be willing to admit, hmm, maybe this is an attachment thing, because I see it so much, this probably says a lot about me, you'll read into it, I see it so much faster in other people than I ever see it in myself. I look at my friends or my coworkers and I'll go, hmm, they must have some of a thing versus, I wonder why I act that way. So being able to be vulnerable enough to admit I need to look into this, how do you address that?

Eli 

Yeah. Well, I want everyone to remember that the patterns we've developed, let's say they're insecure patterns, they were adaptive patterns. So whatever it is that you need to work on in order to learn more secure patterns, the patterns you're working out of existed in a context where they made sense. Okay, so we're not, it's not, oh, I am not mature or I have not evolved. It's just.

Oh, this pattern makes sense in these early relationships where my caregivers had these specific limitations or styles, but it doesn't make sense for me in the type of love I want to have now. And we all have that proclivity to defend ourselves, especially in heightened devotions. And so it takes a little extra work if you didn't grow up in a secure environment to learn how to move towards meltiness in conflict, you know, to step out of criticism and into curiosity. Whew, that's a challenging thing if it was never modeled, right? In my home growing up, the environment was very much like who was right, who was wrong, who was the good guy, who was the bad guy, right? And so my brain and my nervous circuitry was wired to look for that in conflict. Is this my fault? Did I do this? Have I failed? Or is this your fault? Did you do this? Have you failed? And it took me a long time to learn. Wait a minute.

Eli

This is a discovery moment. You need something or I need something or we both need something. What is it? And how can we work together to get those needs met? And that's all conflict is. It's needs that are arising in a surprising way. Whoa, I'm feeling frustrated. What is it I'm needing? What is it you're needing? How do we move forward together?

Natalie Tysdal 

What are the most common? You mentioned, I don't know if what you were saying in avoidance and those things are the four, but what are the most common? Give people examples they might relate to and why they deal with things the way they do and what that might've looked like when they were young.

Eli 

Mm-hmm. Yep. So I'm gonna talk about secure experiences first so that we all kind of have the template of like, oh, this is what we wanna give our kids. This is what we all should have had in a perfect world, which is when we are young, we don't have a lot of brain developed actually. And so we can't rationalize as easy as we can express through emotions. So we have lots of feelings when we're young.

And if we have caregivers who are understanding of our feelings and warm and responsive to our feelings, then what happens is we internalize this pattern that says when I'm tender, I should reach for somebody. And when I reach for them and get close to them, it will soothe me so I can receive. So it's reach and receive. So if you grew up in a secure environment, it just felt intuitive to turn towards the arms of your caregivers because they were warm, understanding, and receptive most of the time. None of us are like this all of the time, but most of the time. But if you grew up in an environment where your caregivers were either really shut down, so they were emotionally uncomfortable, they did not like to be around feelings, so they were dismissive of feelings, or they were highly anxious and highly intrusive, so when emotions came into the room, they took them on, they flooded themselves with those emotions, they panicked. Then there was no one with the capacity to soothe you. So what you learn to do is avoid and distract. So when feelings come into the room, you're like the turtle, you go into your shell. You go internal and you do everything you can to move the attention away from the emotional material, whether that's your own material or other people's material, but your coping mechanism is like do something else here, something else here. How do we get away from this? La la la. I don't wanna see it, I don't wanna hear it. Because there was nowhere to go. So it was adaptive to ignore and move away. And as an adult, if you have that pattern, it's actually extremely hard to stay in emotions for very long or remember emotions because your brain has been wired to move away from them.

Eli

The third category is if you grew up in a home where there was an unpredictable responsiveness. So sometimes there was warmth, there was settling, there was security, but sometimes it was the opposite, or it just wasn't there. So this often happens in families where there's alcoholism or real serious mental illness or domestic violence, where there's a cycle of some kind where sometimes parents are there and sometimes they aren't.

Well then what happens is you develop a type of hypervigilance in relationships. So when you bond with people, you constantly scan them. Do you love me now? Are you mad at me now? What about now? Is everything okay? How come you didn't text me back for 10 minutes? What's wrong here? And you did that in childhood because it was adaptive. Because you had caregivers who weren't able to be predictable. So you took on the responsibility of trying to get them to be predictable for you.

So then you enter adulthood and it's hard to trust. So the metaphor there is reach and receive. So you know how to reach, you know how to try and cling to the people in your life, but you don't know how to soothe in response to the reassurance they give you or the support they give you. Your nervous system sort of just stays at this elevated state in your close relationships. And the last one is always so heartbreaking to me is if you grew up in a home where a caregiver was frightening.

So they were abusive or they were so severely mentally ill, they had schizophrenia, or they were doing some form of serious drug, heroin, methamphetamines, where you had to protect yourself from your caregiver. That scrambled up your system because in that moment where you have the drive to seek someone for support, that person is the thing you're trying to seek safety away from, right? And so your entire system is scrambled.

Like where do I go? There is no safe place. So then you only have those more primitive coping skills, which would be like fight, flight, freeze, faint, fawn. You tend to either blow up or shut down in moments where you feel tender or distress. If you've ever had a friend or someone in your life where the moment they get vulnerable, they get mean. That's why because their nervous system says danger.

I'm vulnerable, which means that I could get into way more danger than I'm in already. And so the only thing I know how to do is fight you off and try and get you away from my vulnerability.

Which makes it really hard to bond securely.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah. What age is this really happening? Is this, you know, toddlerhood? Is this all the way through 18? And then do these things happen later in life? Like what if you're in a marriage that is these things? Can you just, are those things only in childhood or do we develop these attachment things all throughout?

Eli 

They develop throughout our lives and they shift throughout our lives. So our attachment security can increase and it can decrease. You could have a really secure childhood and end up in a marriage that's super abusive and you have to adapt to that relationship. And so that shifts you out of that security or vice versa, a really abusive childhood and a really secure marriage that helps you learn security. And it's not just in marriage, friendships, communities. Yeah.

Natalie Tysdal 

you're the closest with that you spend the most time with.

Eli 

Yeah, Sue Johnson is another therapist who's done a lot of work around attachment and she says, cradle to grave. Attachment is cradle to grave. And that's right. There was a really beautiful video on the internet a few weeks ago of this gentleman who was probably in his 90s going to say goodbye to his brother who was dying. He was like in a hospital bed. And you're watching these two men who are, you know, well at the end of their life, thanking each other and crying together. I'm like tearing up just thinking about it because it's so beautiful. But like that's attachment. Like we are designed to love people and to have special close people that we belong with and who belong with us. And not all relationships are created the same. So some relationships, you know, end in a deep gratitude and an embrace. Other relationships end with a sense of salute. Goodbye. Please get out of my life. You know?

Eli 

But our goal with ourselves is to know our own story and work through what happened in our life in childhood, in adulthood, and then begin to take responsibility and ownership over how we've coped and move into a more secure place so that we can be more secure for other people and choose more secure people and invest in those relationships. I know a lot of people who spend so much energy trying to get insecure people to be secure for them. Right?

Natalie Tysdal 

Oh yes. What if the people you love are not willing to work on their attachments?

Mm-hmm. Well, so I think it's interesting when people aren't willing to work on their attachment. It's usually because they're scared Right, like there's some material in the back of their mind that they have worked very hard to avoid And they're afraid it means something about them and their worthiness So I would say, you know when you invite this work be gentle like hey I know this is scary and I have some sense that you really don't want to do this

Eli 

And I'm guessing there's some good reason for that. But I really want to be genuinely close with you. Like that is something I long for with you. And so can we please try a little and we do it together. And you know, at some point in a journey, if you've asked someone and they won't, and they won't, and they won't, then my question to you would be, is it time to grieve or time to hope? And when we grieve,

We accept things we cannot change. And maybe you need to do that first. Or maybe you've already grieved and it's time to say, you know what? I want more.

You know, I don't know.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, it's so sad because you see it in some people, be it maybe it's someone's parents and you want that, and maybe it was a mental disorder or alcoholism or something, and you so want to connect with them and they can't do it. Or maybe it's a friend or a brother or...

Eli 

Totally, totally. Well actually, you know, it's interesting because my brother has only recently come into sobriety and willingness to engage, and he wasn't for a very long time. And he has some really complicated extra pieces of his story that have created a fear of just not wanting to go there. But he didn't decide to go there because I asked him to, I pressured him to, I invited him to.

He went there because he hit a rock bottom. And because someone in his life said, I'm not doing this with you anymore. And so I think sometimes it's hard because you can see the potential in people and the hope for people, but we can't rescue people. That's not a real thing. We do. But if we're trying to rescue people, there's a strong chance that we have a resistant, okay, there's like 75 names for all the attachment patterns, which is very annoying, but some people will know it as anxious attachment or.

Natalie Tysdal 

Oh, we try so hard though, don't we?

Eli 

resistant or ambivalent attachment pattern, but that specific pattern I talked about where you feel Responsible to try to get people to stay close to you. That's usually what rescuing is coming from It's like love me. Love me. Love me Well, how about if I give you this or if I give you that or if we try this or if maybe if I say it like this or say it like that and I would just say like It's it's okay that this person is not enough for you Be clear with them. Hey, this is not enough for me

Natalie Tysdal (18:29)

Yeah.

Eli 

And you'd be surprised how many people, once they really understand the gravity of the situation, will do the courageous work. Even when they were refusing to before, you know, you say, hey, I can't continue to be in a relationship that's this emotionally dead. I need you to figure out what you're hiding from or whatever, yeah. Yeah of this is we hear so many family patterns, you know, things happen in families and then they happen to the next generation and all of that, but it sounds to me like this actually kind of ping-pongs. Like if you come from the alcoholic family then you're gonna have a pattern where, I mean, you overcompensate because of what you went through or can you break a family pattern of this?

Eli 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so even though there's four patterns, there's really two sides. There's a secure side and an insecure side. And so though the pattern may go from a parent who's avoidant to a parent who's intrusive, to another parent who's intrusive, to another parent who's an avoidant because of the intrusion, even though it's doing that, it's staying insecure. So the way to break out of the pattern is not doing the opposite of what your parent did. It is.

Eli 

learning to heal your body and your nervous system so that you can be grounded and secure and present in a way that your parent wasn't. We call that cycle breaking. But yeah, I mean, that's why I'm so excited about this work. I'm actually finishing my second book right now. It's gonna be out in the fall and it's called Raising Securely Attached Kids and it is all about like, how do you do that? And what does that look like? And what's emotional attunement? And how do we have a healthy, secure mindset about our children? You know, when we are...

Natalie Tysdal 

Oh, great.

Eli 

given this insecure inheritance, we often are also given mindsets that justify that inheritance. I think of, I remember my mom telling me that what she was told over and over growing up was like, children are meant to be seen and not heard. And that came from war trauma. That came from mothers who were raising children without the support of a partner or the finances. And there's a lot of dynamics that

Eli 

cultivate the insecurity. But when we're breaking that cycle, we have to stop and look at what are these mindsets? Where's scarcity mindset here? There's a control mindset here. You know, a secure mindset says, we are going to get through this together. I am here for you, right? Like it is connection focused. And in that connection, you don't have all the answers. You are so aren't regulated all of the time but you return to connection when there's been disconnection or rupture. There's a sense of valuing the relationship over everything else.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, absolutely. Give me some success stories. Give me some examples of people you work with so that people who are listening now can say relate to that and yes I can get there.

Yes. Oh, I mean, I could go on and on and on. I'm just thinking of a particular person who grew up in a home where she was sexually abused by her father. Her mother denied it. Right. So there was this like ongoing terror and confusion. And she's done incredible work to process that trauma and separate herself and recognize it was not her fault. And she had no control and learn how to feel secure in herself. And so raising now a daughter and having moments of fear, right, around something happening to her, but being able to separate that from her daughter, not putting that on her daughter, not constantly talking about protecting herself or looking out for people or giving her the tools she needs to be safe, but enjoying her, enjoying the process and allowing herself to almost relive childhood in a way, right? Like, oh.

I'm gonna let my daughter have a childhood and I'm gonna watch it and bear witness to it and think about what it would have been like had I been able to do it, yeah.

Natalie Tysdal

serious work. There's someone that's an extreme story and some serious work someone has to do to

Eli 

I wish that was a truly extreme story. It's way more common than you think.

Natalie Tysdal

Oh, wow.

Eli 

I mean, if it wasn't a father, it was, you know, another family member or a youth leader or a pastor or somebody, you know, it's unfortunately pervasive in our culture. And I think when we are able to, Mr. Rogers says, what is mentionable is manageable. So when we are able to look back upon our stories and acknowledge them, truly acknowledge them for what they actually are and say them in words and bring them into other people and have witnesses and care around those stories, they lose some of their power. I am not my story anymore. Now my story is this is something that happened to me. This is not something that marks me.

Natalie Tysdal 

and how many of those people you mentioned actually have never admitted it, never even told anyone.

Eli 

Yeah, so many, so many because it feels so shameful. But it's not shameful. I mean, I think that's part of the key is when you look back into your early years going, oh, wait a minute, I felt unlovable. Why did I feel unlovable? Oh, well no one ever told me they loved me. Oh, well that's messed up. Why wouldn't you tell your kids you love them? Oh, maybe my parents were hurting and they never resolved their pain and their trauma. Okay, so maybe I'm not the problem. Maybe this you know, crowd of people in my life now who says they love me, maybe they're not just dumb-dums. Maybe I can accept their love now and believe them and trust them and not just push away the love they're offering me. Let it heal me.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's talk then about making sure the people in our lives, once we've dealt with our own, which is number one, right, is making sure the people around us, we are forming the attachments in our children at an early age. What are the things we need to be doing? Certainly hope I did it all right, but I'm sure I messed up along the way. I'm doing college, middle school, and I'm like, I wanna be sure they know, but then in doing that, I'm probably overcompensating.

Eli 

Oh yeah, we all mess up. We all mess up.

It depends on how anxious you were. Okay, so there's a term I really love. It's called good enough parenting. And it was coined in the 1960s by this British object relations therapist, Winnicott. But it's been backed by some data by Edtronic. There's another one that I can't remember name right now, but who have gone and looked at how often are

Eli 

secure dyads, so a parent and a child, how often are they really actually emotionally in sync? And the range for security is 30 to 50% of the time. So if you have in sync interactions, less than half the time, but the other half of the time, you're doing this dance of going out of sync and back in sync, not just out of sync trajectory, out of sync.

Right? You get into a conflict, you have a moment, but you repair it. You return to connection and understanding and support. Your kids experience security with you.

Eli 

You know, if, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really important to recognize that repair process is a big piece of a puzzle. You know, it teaches our kids how to repair. It teaches them how to say, you know, my kids, when I'm sort of off, they use the word harsh. They'll be like, ma, you're being so harsh. And I love it.

I think it's not inaccurate. Like, you know, we're getting to this, trying to get to school and I'm kind of like, get your shoes on. I asked you three times, like there's a harshness to it, right? But I can come back to them and say, hey, sorry, I was being a little harsh earlier. I was really stressed and overwhelmed because we had to go and I had a meeting and we weren't getting out very fast. Let's come up with a better process to make this go smoother. Let's pick our clothes out the night before, or, you know.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, right.

Eli

Whatever, we can kind of problem solve it, but I can own my impact on them, which teaches them that there's no shame in owning their impact on other people, that they can return to that. That's how we stay close to people, because we all rupture, we all have disconnection and conflict.

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah.Right. Yeah. I think that's big. Yeah. I, you know, I think I probably grew up in a household of my generation of like just strict, do what I say to do and don't question it. Don't, you know, don't backtalk, don't all of that. And we have kids now and me teaching in high school, I see they wanna have more say. And yet I'm like, well, my parents didn't let me have that say But still that for me being able to say like you, gosh, I was pretty harsh then. You still need to listen to me, I'm your mom. But let's talk about it. I want you to feel like a housewife.

Eli 

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can hear you. You could have a voice and I'm still going to, as the grownup, make a final call, but your voice will influence some of that, right? Especially as they age, especially as they get into adolescence, we really want to be collaborative with our children because that's what they're gonna do out in the world, right? We don't want our children to practice obeying us in adolescence because then they start practice obeying who? Their next sweetheart? or whatever, the goal is that they learn to be cooperative. And I think what you're describing is a compliance dominance dynamic. I'm the boss, you do what I say. I'm in charge, you're submissive, right? And actually that way of relating is, it may feel old school in our present context, but it's actually very new school in the human context. It's something that's come into the parental way of relating, you know, really in the last couple hundred years.

But traditionally, like across Indigenous cultures, the parent-child relationship is cooperative and it is attuned and it is connected and it is about this deep sense of togetherness. Like you are my child, you are the most precious thing in the world to me. It's not about you being in charge, child, it's about we share the work of trying to live a healthy, fulfilling life together.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah, yeah, with a level of respect because teenagers aren't always respectful.

Eli 

Yeah, well, and they need our help learning that, you know, and so, but I think we also need to not take it personally, right? So, oh, you're wanting to individuate from me and have more freedom and I'm saying no, and you're angry about it. And so you're telling me I'm a bit of an uptight B. Okay. Hey, it's okay that you're frustrated that I'm holding the reins on this. I get it. I wouldn't want anyone to hold the reins on me with something that sounds so fun. And it's okay for you to tell me you're mad, but it is not okay to name call.

Natalie Tysdal

Ready. Yeah.

Eli 

Let's just we don't do that. I love you.

Natalie Tysdal

I love the way you wrote all that. Yeah, boy, I need to write all that down. That's good. Oh, so helpful. So much good information. I can't wait for your new book. No.

Eli 

Good. I know I'm excited too. I'm actually in the editing phase, so I'm really excited to be done with that part. It's so much work.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah, well, you continue to give out great information, which is where I found you on social media. And sometimes just those little tidbits, it's the good and the bad of social media, right? But the good, that we can feed some of this to ourselves in little increments to learn, right? To be better parents, to have better relationships, be a better friend, like all of that. Like it's so important.

Eli 

Yes. Yes. Yes, yes. Yes. I mean, we all need reminders. In the modern life, we can just get stuck down so many like potholes of distraction and confusion. You know, like you said, the bad of social media, comparing ourselves, trying to, you know, compete with people. We need the voices out in the world saying like, hey, here's what matters most.

Natalie Tysdal

Yeah.

You know, I've started to do social media edit and it has been like so awesome because the people now, you know how, if you like something, then you start to see more like that. And so people like you, other people who are, for me, mental health experts, faith, people who have awesome, just awesome recommendations. And so now my feed is full of inspiration. Yeah, I'm gonna sit down and give myself, I'm gonna give you 20 minutes

Eli

Mine is too. I love that. I love it.

Natalie Tysdal

feeding my soul. I'm like, this is good. Oh, that's good. And just getting rid of the things that are yucky, negative, trendy, all of

Eli 

I love it. Yes. Yeah, right, consumer culture. You need more, more. Like, no, I don't think I need more, more. I need to like sit in gratitude of what I do have and like including the connections and the people in my world. Like who, I do this exercise every once in a while, well, I'll stop and I'll just take an inventory on where I'm spending my time. And I'm like, is it in alignment with what really matters to me? Like if tomorrow is my last day on earth, will I have spent these last few weeks?

Natalie Tysdal

Yes.

Eli 

in honor of what most matters to me. And if I haven't, okay, let's adjust those sales a little bit, like let's spend a little more time with some folks that are very grounding and fulfilling for me and a little less time, trying to satisfy relationships that feel like you're hitting your head against a wall. Like, where do I wanna plant this limited energy that I happen to have in my life?

Natalie Tysdal 

Yeah, I agree. Well, I'm gonna put links in the show notes to your first book and tell me the name of it again.

Eli 

Awesome. Yay!

Natalie Tysdal

What's the name of the first book? It's surely a-

Eli 

Oh, securely attached. And securely attached, transform your attachment patterns into loving, lasting, romantic relationships. Caveat here, it's really not just for romance. My publisher's like, you have to pick a lane. I was like, okay, fine, put romance. But it is for any attachment relationship. Best friends, close friends, and it will help you in your parenting, even if it's not about parenting, because it will help you learn to have a more regulated sense of self. And that is what your children need most from you.

Natalie Tysdal

Yes, well I am going to put a link to that and then when the new book comes out, let's do this again. Okay, we'll hear all about it and I'll also put links to your social media for people to follow. It's so nice to talk to you. We're Colorado friends now. We just realized we're both here. Yeah, well, it's good to talk to you and we'll do it again soon. Thanks Eli.

Eli 

Love it. I would love to.

Thank you so much. You too. Yay! I'm so glad. It's so fun.

Sounds good. You're welcome.