Podcast interview with Author, Speaker and Leadership expert, Jackie Insinger
Transcript from The Natalie Tysdal Podcast
Natalie:
Jackie, I know I'm always busy and I know you are and all my friends are, but why is that actually not a good thing?
Jackie:
Well, you know everything in moderation, right? We look at so many areas of our lives as what. What feels okay and what is too much. When does the. When does the scale tip into not good for us anymore? And you know, when I read about this concept, there's a big article in Harvard Business Review around toxic productivity. It like literally slapped me in the face. It's like that. That feels so accurate that just the term around what we know to be true. How so? So much of what we do is getting stuff done and not giving ourselves permission to rest, relax.
Jackie:
That's why there's so many things about self care and balance and all these things that so many of us joke about. Like, I wish I had time for that or I don't have the luxury for that. Right. All of this self talk also around being busy, being busy, being busy. How are you busy? You busy? Right? Like, we know how this feels and it's almost part of our identity now to the point of not being healthy.
Natalie:
Yeah. And it's. It is like as I. I sit here at my desk and I'm looking at my to do list and it's so much. But I've created it. I've made my to do list. I'm the one who thinks all those things need to get done.
Jackie:
Yeah. And that, and that's what one of these things, Natalie, that I, you know, I know you and I know you know me, and we both have a lot of high achiever in us. And I know a lot of women have this sense of always needing to be doing, never like feeling like, like almost allowed or giving ourselves permission to just be. To just chill, to spend time, like if we're not sick. Like, I'm just gonna rest. I'm just gonna sit around and read my book today. I'm just gonna fill in the blank of whatever it is that makes you happy. So many of us feel like if we're not busy, we're not achieving.
Jackie:
We're not doing things that prove something to ourselves. Right. That we're always making progress, we're always getting something done. And I want to pull this apart for a minute because I talk a lot about progress and progress is huge. And progress is key to motivation. Progress is key to happiness. So it's not about staying stuck because we don't want to stay stuck. But progress isn't always tied to productivity.
Jackie:
Right. Sometimes we're taking Action in ways that means I'm going to take action and do something healthy for myself. I'm going to take action and make progress by going and going on a walk with a friend or going to lunch with somebody I care about or making a phone call and catching up with somebody. Because progress toward a goal of maybe being more authentically connected could be a goal versus being productive and getting things done. And I feel like we, we can mix those things up a lot about action and progress being the same thing and productivity and progress being the same thing. But I feel like in this conversation it's important to kind of pull it apart because some of it is an identity we place on ourselves that maybe isn't necessary.
Natalie:
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I love that notion of the, of the productivity and the progress. The progress towards your goal doesn't have to mean 10 hours of busy work or more meetings or more. It's finding the right, the right balance. So let's, let's get into some more tips then on ways that we can be. You work with top executives and all kinds. You can tell us about that, who you work with, and how do you help them find balance and be good leaders. I know you work with a lot of leaders, but for the women listening, that's what we are like.
Natalie:
We're leaders in our homes. Right.
Jackie:
And it works. Yeah, leaders in all of your lives, leaders in your family, leaders in all relationships you're in. And I think a big piece, Natalie, is understanding why you're busy. And for some of us, being busy is because we're managing the house. We have to get these things done. The holidays are coming up. Whatever it is that keeps us busy. Sometimes we feel this innate need to be busy because it's really hard to be still.
Jackie:
And I think that's something to be really aware of and just kind of sit within yourself. And that's something, you know, I identified in, in me. And you know, one of the things that once I kind of had an awareness around this, I started talking to other leaders about it, specifically women who were feeling the same way, is that at some point when you look back in your childhood, there was some point that maybe you got feedback or gave yourself feedback that your self worth and your value was tied to achievement, was tied to some kind of output. And then when you maybe got that validation or feedback, whether it was from yourself, a teacher, your family anyway, that built into your identity. It almost became part of who we are, that when we do, we achieve and we have greater value. And worth. So when we're still, we're like, well, I'm not achieving, then what's my value? My value is tied here, right? Your worth is in your work instead of your worth being who you are and just your value is just because of who you are and who you were born to be. And I think that's a really key piece if you tie it back to self worth.
Jackie:
That's maybe why I feel this inherent critical need to always be busy.
Natalie:
Yeah.
Jackie:
You know, I don't know about you, but If I have 30 minute break at work, like in the day, I'm getting something done. I'm not like, I have a break, I'm just gonna chill, I'm gonna like read my book, I'm gonna go on a walk. It's always like, okay, well I gotta throw in the laundry and I gotta do this thing and I'm gonna answer these emails like it's this need, this need to be busy versus really just. Yeah, I'm okay just being still.
Natalie:
So how do we, how do we get there? So we have that 30 minute break. I have those all the time and sometimes it's even in the car, like picking the kids up and I've got a little break and I go, oh, I can, I can sit on my phone and get a bunch of email done in a, in a 30 minute time. So how do we get there? How can we use those breaks to really be mindful of what we need versus busyness?
Jackie:
Yeah. Well, I think the first part is the awareness of why am I busy? Because if it's a phase, like right now in the holidays where a lot of people are like, I just need to get so many things done. Yeah, that's fine. We will always have time, you know, time periods where we have so much to do that we just need to do. But if it's tied to your feelings of how you feel about yourself, I think that's where you need to have that awareness and that pause moment of I need to give myself permission to, to be my authentic self. Right. That I am worth so much more than my work. I am worth so much more than what I do.
Jackie:
And that is such a key piece of it. And then, you know, we talked about progress toward goals is different than productivity. Then what I do is I set a goal of I need to have time where I honor me, where I'm taking care of myself and prioritizing that. So what does that look like and how do I do it? That means taking a walk with my dog every Day and not listening to a work based podcast. Right. So for me, if I have any free time, I'm like, I'm gonna put on this podcast while I'm sitting in the sauna. So I'm learning while I'm just sitting. So I'm not just sitting.
Jackie:
Cause that feels like I'm not using my time wisely. Right. So I'm reframing it of what's my goal. My goal is to have 30 minutes a day where I'm doing something that's not about being productive. It's about self care, which is progress toward a goal of taking care of my true self. Right. And my health and my wellbeing. So almost that reframe of a goal that you can make progress toward, that's not about being productive, but it's about doing something that is really truly about you and nothing else.
Jackie:
No measurement, no external measurement of yourself.
Natalie:
Yeah. That resonates so much with me. I mean, I can think of times even like yoga, I have a hard time with yoga because I feel like I'm not being productive when I'm just doing yoga or even any classes like that if I can't multitask my brain. And that's really a habit and I still struggle with that.
Jackie:
Yep, yep. And it's that feeling of, you know, sleep what, you know, I'll get there, but my kids need this and this needs this and I need to get this done. And I have this proposal due and this needs to be cleaned up and the laundry and, and it just keeps going and going and, and it's just this moment of the world's probably not going to fall apart. Right. If you're five minutes late to something, you know, if you're, you know, if your kid's old enough and they could wait out front for five minutes, right. If, you know, the laundry, if you get it done in the morning, like there's just certain things we tell ourselves are so essential that almost occupies our mind away from what do we really need? And sometimes it's that pause of what do I really need right now? Do I need to get this laundry done or do I need to do something that fuels my soul? Right. And kind of looking at what do I really need right now? And I think that's a, that's a moment to figure out a little bit more about how to build things in that feel. Feel good.
Natalie:
Well, I. So I'm curious with the, with the executives you work with, with the leaders you work with of those who are the most successful all around because obviously we look at high achieving leaders and we see busy, busy, busy, busy. But do you see and how do those people manage that self care?
Jackie:
So you know, a big piece of it, Natalie, is when I work with executives is we do a lot of calendar audits we go through and the way I frame it is what is the greatest impact use of your time. And when you look at your time based on impact and influence versus busy, you start to pull it apart. When you're doing this thing that keeps you busy, it's and that somebody else could do, you're actually not doing the thing that only you can do that has a greater impact and influence.
Natalie:
So give me an example. What does that look like in our lives and our even in our families? Getting the kids to do the dishes.
Jackie:
Getting the kids to do the dishes. Right. And there are things like that, right. When you look at what is the greatest impact and influence use of your time. So sometimes time blocking, sometimes the way that we start something and take things out to start something and then we get distracted and then we have this big pile of something that then we have that's bigger and worse than before that we didn't have to get back to. But figuring out like sometimes even just saying like, okay, in 15 minutes I'm going to put on three songs. Right now songs are like two minutes, but back in our day songs were like closer to five minutes. But however many, like we're going to put on 15 minutes of music of a playlist and I'm going to clean and I'm going to do whatever I can in those 15 minutes.
Jackie:
Right. And then you time block it versus something that you know, there's a concept which however much time we have, we will fill. So sometimes giving yourself a shorter amount of time to do something, you'll actually get it done. Yeah, right. Versus like if you have six days to do a project, it'll take it.
Natalie:
Yeah, yeah.
Jackie:
We see this with our kids, with studying for anything or a project, if it's due tomorrow, it's done tomorrow. If it's due next week, it's not done till the night before the next week.
Natalie:
Right.
Jackie:
So things fill up time, they expand. So sometimes when you look at the things that have to be done by you and their priorities, like really looking at priorities, what has to be done by me and what has to be done now if that's that, set a time, set a timer to get it done and somehow you'll realize like, wow, I got that done so much faster because I, I set A time limit around it. Because I really find it's important to build in this other thing that just brings me joy.
Natalie:
Yeah, yeah.
Jackie:
That it's not about an achievement, it's bringing me joy. And building in times for joy also makes you more productive. Right. Because you're fueling that part of yourself that's more fulfilled, that's more engaged in your life, which then means you're more productive in other areas and you're doing things faster because you're more focused.
Natalie:
Yeah.
Jackie:
So it's really optimizing.
Natalie:
I have a feeling that for a lot of people, that will be hard at first to just sit to. If you haven't read much, to just sit and read your mind starts like. I find myself doing that. I read and I'm enjoying it. And then as I'm reading, I'm thinking about something else and to bring it back and to really train yourself to be able to do that and stay in the moment.
Jackie:
Yeah. And maybe it's. Maybe it's by starting with, yeah, I seem to be enjoying this for 10 minutes. Don't force it. Right. If. If. Then it becomes a chore, then it becomes something you're trying to be productive about.
Jackie:
I'm not reading and I'm not present. I'm just reading in my head, not with my brain. It'll remember I'm reading with my eyes and not with my brain. And so then you start judging yourself and then you're forcing it. So you know what? I enjoyed that for 10 minutes. I'm going to go do something else. I'm going to go back to my thing or I'm going to go do something else that brings me joy, whatever it is. But I think just taking some of this expectation and pressure off of ourselves in this culture of busyness and really just building in time where you feel like you're really taking care of you.
Jackie:
Yeah.
Natalie:
And we start to believe what we. What we say. So you mentioned when someone says, how are you? How many of us say busy? And then we're actually creating that busyness. I've. I've made it a goal when someone asks, anything else, anything other than busy, you know, I'm having a good day. We start to believe the things that we say in those moments.
Jackie:
Yeah.
Natalie:
Yeah.
Jackie:
It's true. And it became like a badge of honor.
Natalie:
Oh, it's so busy.
Jackie:
You've been busy. I've been so busy. You. Yeah. So busy. It's like, what. Why is that a. Why is that something to be proud of?
Natalie:
Yeah.
Jackie:
Right. It means that we're, you know, we all have the same amount of time in the day, so maybe it means we're not prioritizing things. Right. Maybe it means that we're overwhelmed and we're taking on too much that we could say, this isn't so important right now for me to be spending time here, because when you're so busy, you're actually not present with the things that matter. And I think that is such a key thing is saying, like, how do I want to fill my time and what am I doing now that's keeping me so busy that maybe can wait, or I need to find a new solution for.
Natalie:
Yeah, let's talk about the new year. We all like to set new goals. Some people do it more than others. But what are. What are things that you would suggest going into a new year that we can do differently? Some of these things we've already mentioned, but some of the ways that we can find more balance, be more productive without being busy. What tips would you give from your book and the speaking engagements you have? What are some of your favorites?
Jackie:
You know, some of my favorites right now are actually what I'm processing through in the moment. So I'm going through this very reflective period where, you know, looking ahead at my life and what do I want it to look like? And what version of me needs to be present for that?
Natalie:
Yeah.
Jackie:
And it's a different way of. Of looking at things rather than what do I want to achieve, what revenue numbers do I want to hit? You know, like, these external, like, idealistic goals that I measure myself against, which generally are unrealistic. Right. And then you end up feeling bad about yourself because you're like, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, life happened and I didn't hit that, and now I feel like I'm not. Yeah, you feel guilty. You feel like you failed. Instead of, like, looking at how do I want to.
Jackie:
What is. What do I want to feel like in 10 years? What do I want my life to look like? What do. How do I need to change now to be that? And so much of it for me has become my health. And, you know, how do I physically want to be able to be. I want to be able to get up off the floor and stand up off the floor without worrying about my knees. Like, I want to be able to feel like my. My heart's in shape, my brain's in shape, and that I'm not losing any of that. Right.
Jackie:
And I feel like so many of these things when you look ahead, no matter if you're 30 or 40 or 50, looking ahead and saying, what do I want to feel like? What does success look like to me in my life? Not just in my work, but in my life? And what do I need to do? What are some steps I need to take, and what do I need to prioritize to move on that path? And, you know, kind of at our midlife right now, it's really looking at what do we need to start in order to be healthy in 25 years? Because what we do now is going to be that that's what's going to impact. That is what we do now. And so that's a piece, Natalie, that's really different for me this year, that it's a different type of reflection and a different type of looking ahead.
Natalie:
Yeah, I relate to that also, because being a busy person, I'm gonna try to not. I'm gonna try to not use that word as much in the new year. But being that way, I've. I've found that at this stage in my life, I can't do all of the things that I used to do, like stay up all night and finish a project or rearrange part of the house or just cram some work in. That used to be in my 20s and college and early life in the news business, like, that was nothing. But now, if we don't prioritize, prioritize our health, we won't be able to do any of those things anyway.
Jackie:
And it's. And it hits you pretty hard.
Natalie:
Yeah, it does, right? Yeah.
Jackie:
Yep. And I think that's one of those things where I'm kind of, you know, I think the past few years have made a lot of people more reflective. For after Covid, when the world turned upside down and inside out, and all of a sudden we were looking at our time and our space in a whole different way.
Natalie:
Yeah.
Jackie:
And now I think, looking at ourselves, our health, and really almost recalibrating, what does success look like and feel like to me? Because as we, you know, our early selves have a very specific idea that are usually very goal oriented and very achievement oriented. And as life. Life happens and as things get more complex between family members and children or deaths and different things happening things, things change about what does success really look like to me? And sometimes it becomes, you know, feeling really connected with my husband when the kids are leaving, like that success to me. Right. So what do I need to do now to make sure that that stays right? And so sometimes success looks totally different than it did last year or the year before or 10 years before, but being able to pause again. I've used that word a lot this time, but it's about that in so many ways and really take the time to recalibrate and redefine. What does success look like and feel like for me now and accept that it might be totally different than it was.
Natalie:
I think that's a really good exercise heading into a new year, to pause and reflect on what does success look like. To take the busyness out and to. To just really, really think about that. Yeah. Well, thank you for the advice, as always. I love having you on. And we. We need to actually see each other in person sometime soon.
Jackie:
And. Natalie, I just think one thing is. I think we need to substitute busy with meaning. And I think that's. That's a way to think about it.
Natalie:
That's a really good way to look at it. When you feel like you're busy, stop and say, is that. Is this meaningful? Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna save that one. That's a good one. Thanks, Jackie. Great. Really good to see you.
Natalie:
Thanks for your advice. Happy Holidays, and Happy New Year.
Jackie:
You too.
Natalie:
Okay, hold on just a second. I will hit. We were.
